[問題]犧牲生物揍人

[laipili]

請問以下兩個組合技是否合法
1.Phyrexian Dreadnought+ Fling
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Artifact Creature - Dreadnought 12/12, 1 (1)
Trample
When Phyrexian Dreadnought comes into play, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice any number of creatures with total power 12 or greater.1

Fling Instant, 1R (2)
As an additional cost to play Fling, sacrifice a creature.
Fling deals damage equal to the sacrificed creature's power to target creature or player.1

先下　Phyrexian Dreadnought ,
當Phyrexian Dreadnought 進場, 此時已經在場上了,
觸發本身異能並放入stack：sacrifice it unless you sacrifice any number of creatures with total power 12 or greater.1


接下來使用 Fling(As an additional cost to play Fling, sacrifice a creature.
Fling deals damage equal to the sacrificed creature's power to target creature or player.1
)
犧牲掉已經在場上的Phyrexian Dreadnought
由於　Fling　效應會先發生, 所以對目標玩家造成12點傷害

請問我這種用法是否有成立呢？ thanks

　　
2. Phyrexian Dreadnought+ Pandemonium
Pandemonium
Enchantment, 3R (4)
Whenever a creature comes into play, that creature's controller may have it deal damage equal to its power to target creature or player of his or her choice.1

先下 Pandemonium
在下　Phyrexian Dreadnought　觸發本身異能並放入stack：sacrifice it unless you sacrifice any number of creatures with total power 12 or greater.1

我決定異能先後順序:
先對對方玩家造成傷害
再犧牲Phyrexian Dreadnought

請問我這種用法是否有成立呢？ thanks

[fanity]

個人的見解

1. 當你使用Phyrexian Dreadnought後 Phyrexian Dreadnought異能觸發進堆疊 對手讓過優先權 你取得優先權後(此時還未結算) 使用Fling吃掉Phyrexian Dreadnought 砸對手12點傷害 成功

2. 錯誤解答自爆@@

是否正確就請裁判們鑑定吧@@

[selesnya_tony]

Phyrexian Dreadnought [1] Artifact Creature - Dreadnought 12/12
Trample
When Phyrexian Dreadnought comes into play, sacrifice it unless you sacrifice any number of creatures with total power 12 or greater.

Fling [1][R] Instant
As an additional cost to play Fling, sacrifice a creature.
Fling deals damage equal to the sacrificed creature's power to target creature or player.

以上我們看的到 Phyrexian Dreadnought會先進場 觸發異能
直到異能結算之前 它都還會待在場上

所以1的情況下 只要在他的異能結算犧牲前使用Fling
都可以將Phyrexian Dreadnought犧牲作為額外費用

而在2的情況下 Phyrexian Dreadnought進場後
同時觸發自己的異能與Pandemonium的異能
而不論進堆疊順序 Pandemonium的異能都會結算 打目標12點
因為若有個異能要求一個永久物的資訊(例如：攻擊力、總魔法力費用、顏色等)
而該永久物已經離場 則以該永久物離場前最後的資訊為準

舉一個現在的例子
Murderous Redcap進場觸發異能 然後回應Nameless Inversion指它
如果沒有別的堆疊
結算時 Nameless Inversion讓Murderous Redcap變成5/-2
然後在檢查狀態時 因為防禦力小於等於0而進入墳場
接著結算Murderous Redcap的異能時
它所得知的攻擊力數值 因為Murderous Redcap已經離場
所以是離場前的5/-2 也就是打目標5點

回到問題 其實也是一樣的狀況
若Phyrexian Dreadnought先離場 則Pendamonium的異能結算時
所得知的是Phyrexian Dreadnought離場前最後的攻擊力
在這個情況 就是12
所以就還是會讓Phyrexian Dreadnought對目標造成12點傷害

[fanity]

Pandemonium的官方釋疑

10/4/2004 The triggered ability does not check the creature's power until the ability resolves. If the creature is not in play when the ability resolves, it does damage equal to the power of the creature right before it left play. This means that if a creature comes into play which can destroy itself as a "comes into play" ability, the order of resolution of the triggered abilities does not matter.

基本上樓上正解@@